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2005 OPD 940 |
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Once OPD Always OPD |
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From: "Attwood" <blatt@pcisys.net> Thanks Capt Ford that is the entrance exam I remember taking. If you didn't take a scientific approach to that 8" wall and scuttle you would never make it. Imagine how many people that would eliminate today. Bob Attwood 5849 ***Back to top ********************* From: CAP5192P@aol.com Sitting here this evening noodling on my comp. I ran across all the correspondence regarding the degrading of the entrance requirements for a position on the OPD. I had to smile at all the wailing and gnashing of teeth over the the "lowering of standards". I joined the department in 1947, and subsequently had to take a physical agility test which consisted of: 1. Using a strength testing machine similar to what you might find at a carnival, you had to lift a measured weight using the right and left hand that equaled 75 pounds. 2. Clear an 8' wall. 3. Climb through an 18'' scuttle 8' off the floor. 4. Climb a 26' ladder in a timed climb. 5. Pick a 150# dummy off the floor, climb up and down a 16' ladder, and PLACE the dummy down on the floor. Timed climb. (empasis on place as many applicants dropped the dummy on the floor and were disqualified). 6. Climb the underside of a ladder hand over hand from a position as far up as you could reach, and then go up (I believe it was 12 rungs. Timed. 7. Then run 1/2 mile in 6 minutes. This was done at the conclusion of all the other exercises. The run was must be completed event. or you would be disqaulified. This method of testing was also used by the fire department, with minor changes to fit their particular needs. For example, climbing the 60 foot aerial ladder. Many would be firefighters froze on this event and had to be rescued by standby firefighters. The purpose of my dissertation is simply to show that things will change, and entry level testing was one of them. Those of my era moaned and groaned over the lowering of standards even then, and over the years I discovered that the lowering of standards did not lower the quality of the people I worked with over the years. The great majority of the people writing here and bemoaning the end of an era, take heart, the newbies will do just fine, as all of you did, much to our (old farts) surprize. Cap Ford. From: "rotorray@juno.com" <rotorray@juno.com> This wall thing really makes me glad I retired when I did. I spent over 25 years flying and teaching others to fly ARGUS, plus about 3 as a part time observer. We spent most of our time between 500 and 700 feet above ground, but some surveillances took us to 3,000 feet, and higher. To make it "job related" can you imagine the wall I would have had to jump! Scares the hell out of me and I don't think I could do it to keep my job! My family would have had to go on welfare and gosh knows what else. Maybe my wife would have had to work! Heaven forbid!!! Ray Miller From: Robert L Thorp <boblthorp@oregonfast.net> Have read every mail about the corruption of the physical agility standards for the OPD. I still have a question. Is the "wall" still perpendicular to the ground or has that been modified also? Bob ***Back to top From: "Rudy Martin" <rudyp@pacbell.net> I have to side with Sam--I see things written about the Marine Corp and all the HU-RAH crap--You Jar heads love the Corp--Well I was in the Army, a draftee, and I still loved it and I fought for my country--and an proud to have done so. From: kgatbmf@aol.com You know, Frank Mellot said a lot of things I still remember, most recently that a lot of what's being said here wouldn't be said for as long, if at all, if it was being said face to face instead of "safely" over the internet. From: "Sam Holtan" <sholtan@cableone.net> You know, all this talk about a 6 foot wall? I always found it easier to open the gate and walk through. Sam Holtan From: Harlan Goodson <hgoodson@sbcglobal.net> And that, folks, is why Sam Holtan has succeeded as a businessman! From: "Jerry & Bronla" <waltmanb@c-zone.net> something tells me this person won't come forward, no guts, no glory. But then again All Glory is Fleeting. jerry From: Wes Horn <wwh112@email4us.net> Ron you slay me! I really do enjoy reading your stuff...Keep it up....Wes ***Back to top From: WM H CLARK <bayclark@sbcglobal.net> Dick Doporto's post about some of the "buffed guys" being unable to complete the OPD agility test reminds me of the department's testing for the new Entry Teams that were being formed shortly before my retirement. One of the requirements involved completing the obstacle course at Fort Ord. We sent many candidates down there and, much like the entrance agility test, many of the larger candidates had a very difficult, if not impossible, time completing the course. Which reminds me of when I went through Parris Island . Oakland 's own Frank Robinson was there at the same time. He was a rookie with the Cincinnati Reds and was in a 6 month reserve program. I remember him leading us in P.T. one morning. We both ran the P.I. obstacle course (at different times), but we were blown away by a skinny, bespectacled little guy who looked like Wally Cox (I think he set the course record up to that time). Like they say, "It's not the size of the dog in the fight, but the fight in the dog."...That will be 50 years ago next Spring, and I see where Robinson, at age 70, is managing the new Washington Nationals, who are off to a great start. Must be that USMC training. Semper Fi From: Skytrax@aol.com My recollection of changes in the physical agility test involved a suit by Gloria Allred.. Yeah the same Gloria Allred....in the mid 1970s. Ann Duncan, the personnel analyst at the time for the PD and FD, enlisted some female coaches, female PE majors and every seventh cop on the OPD roster, to validate the test. The only change that I recall was that the time of the test was extended and the weight was reduced for the dummy drag. Again, this is all from memory but I believe the test was validated by the courts relative to chasing bad guys, scaling Oakland's six-foot fences, dragging limp bodies from fires, a one-handed strength grip test, lowering the height of the balance beam to From: Jim Coleman <mztgringo@yahoo.com> I saw the "results" of a similar footchase on old beat 8 one night w/Jim Westbrook at the rear. He had heard the old story of ALWAYS ck the size of the dog turds on the other side before hurdling over and took that brief pause to note the susp fell some 25' to his ultimate demise. (No, I dont know if his teeth were in or out).Smart guy. Jim C From: "Joseph Sweeney" <a00Z50@comcast.net> MY MY... whomever this is, they didn't have the guts to post this directly to OPENline and let's us know who he is? Lot of cheap shots, that's all I see. Good response on your part, thanks. jII From: "Samuel Maddux" <sammaddux@earthlink.net> Date: Sat, 30 Apr 2005 23:19:53 -0700 Hey, I guess we are (most of us) Old Farts with a lot of mileage. I know that there are a number of individuals on openline that are from other agencies but, for the most part I believe membership is about 90+% OPD and OPD Retired. If this forum was by LAPD members I would dare to think that most of the membership of that forum would be pumping the accolades of their own department and not that of Oakland , San Diego , etc. Most officers are quite proud of their own department and, if they aren't, God help that department. The person posting the rude message to Ron is obviously not an Oakland Police Officer. My old investigative skills, those that still exist, tend to tell me that the individual is from Alameda County SO. I don't know Chief Tucker from Abraham but I'm sure he will do a credible job. I would bet though, that this officer and most others at ACSO would cringe if the Sheriff retired and they brought in a Deputy Chief from Oakland as the Sheriff. (I know, I believe the Sheriff is elected) but just being hypothetical. I'm sure the Deputies would think immediately that there are a number of current Command Officers that could easily and very efficiently fill the position without bringing in someone from Oakland . Most of us "old farts" know all of the higher command officers in Oakland . We have worked around these guys, know of their abilities, knowledge of the department, how intelligent they are, etc. Most of all, they know the Department, its officers and employees. They also know what has and hasn't worked in Oakland . They have earned their dues and probably should have the chance to prove their abilities. I'm sure that would be the prevailing feeling, no matter what department it occurs on. Yeh, Ron you are a piece of work.....Art. Sam Maddux ***Back to top From: "Ron Oz" <RONOZAWAY@HOTMAIL.COM> In my opinion the following private email (abridged and excerpted) needs to see the light of day. It represents precisely what I was talking about. It is one of the best communications I've witnessed yet. Here is a person telling it like he sees it. He's a bright guy, trained to be an observer, part of our community in Law Enforcement. Anyone who takes his comments personally is missing the point. I happen to think he's wrong. But what if I'm wrong. There's much I'd like to say about Chief Tucker (maybe this person hasn't seen my website article of him), OPD pride, lower standards, differences in policing philosophies, rednecks and pussy pansies, methods and mistakes in operation, OPD heritage and the shift of cultures, and so much more. I grew up in Oakland , attended all its schools, harassed and was harassed by its cops, became one of them and loved every minute. You have me chuckling, and believe me when I say I enjoy that you have the balls to speak your own piece... even though you are way off base with obvious baggage I regard you as a true friend for telling it as you think it is. ron Ron- You really are a piece of work. All the guy said was one should be able to talk someone in to the back of a patrol car and nothing else. But you have to insinuate it meant not being able to force someone into a car if needed. Boy did you miss the point. He never said anything like you claim. You take your slant, and proclaim it the truth. And, as to your bull shit posts about OPD being the best and a few other agencies in the country that measure up, I have never heard, seen, or read of anyone on openline postulating any other police agency was anywhere as near as good as OPD. I look at OPD today, and I see the officers,reports, and testimony every day, and OPD is just an average department. They are nothing special. Perhaps if you looked at your FORMER department the same way you look at and vilify others you might see some light. You old farts kill me thinking your shit and OPD's shit doesn't stink. With all your tirades you do nothing except tear it down. You crucify the current Chief because he "isn't OPD." Well he is now and if you do not support him, I guess you don't support OPD today. Take a good look in the mirror some day. Have fun slapping each other on the ass in Sparks and reliving the old days. Memories and stories always get better with time--and the truth and reality conveniently fades away. ***** Bob, hopefully my last post will clear up the difference between taking what you said, using it as a platform to make additional points, and recognizing that everything any of us says is taken out of context. We all perceive the job differently and yet so similarly. It is the sum total of our opinions that is most likely correct, and not any one of them. But thanks for clearing your point up more succinctly. I and everyone else regarded it, I'm sure, as a stipulation that of course there was so much more that you didn't have a chance to say. ron ***Back to top From: R Souza <nodui@earthlink.net> Ron, You read into this a little too much. Should I give the investigator a two page answer that he would not read or pass on or let him know that this retired officer shows initiative and is reliable. My experience has been working for the State is OPD initiative is a draw back with other agencies. Given our work load and staffing issues, we learned to take care of a problem the first time. I was not addressing the officers competence. I have found that others do not work our way and kind of resent our style of problem solving. I have spoken to many retired officers who have gone on to state and county jobs and we are repeatedly told "SLOW DOWN". We clear cases faster and usually with a more final result then the rest of our co-workers. Not that our way is better, just we had a different learning curve, and time was not a luxury we had. Yes, the OPD officer did show all of that you listed. The agency was looking for what kind of worker this officer was, and my response was addressing that request. We all know of folks who were last to the call and never volunteered. It was a question of character, not credentials. Bob Souza From: "Ron Oz" <RONOZAWAY@HOTMAIL.COM> I think some of us have to flabbergast at the course of communications regarding the "Lowering of Standards." Many of the comments are both presented and rebutted completely out of context, but I now have 40 pages of cut and pasted emails on this subject in a Log to be posted on OPD940 website. It is such a sensitive topic, appreciating that 1% of Openline members, a 100% increase over the usual .5%, are venturing their necks into the controversy, that one must conclude that the issue of a six foot wall represents something looming much larger. Many are of course somewhat intimidated by the large and omnipresent shadow cast by political correctness, but this monster can be fooled a little with innuendos, nuances, double entendres, and obtuse humor that nevertheless gets the message across. Others simply don't want to be controversial or suffer peer embarassment (what is the significance of two s'?). What concerns some of us, I think, is the apparent downplaying by some of our role as a diluted basis for hiring criteria. It seems simply enough on the part of some to express minimal standards, dismiss others as irrelevant, and to diminish any advantage in OPD pride. As examples, just showing up at a 940 and offering to share paperwork without complaint, or being able to song and dance someone into the backseat of a car, and mentions that physical prowess is totally irrelevant, are cited as contemporary thinking, and if so this does indeed depart from tradition. Let's get something straight and on the table immediately. All on OPD wereand must still be separate individuals with separate degrees of skill in a variety of separate talents. All we're talking about when discussing hiring standards is what should be the minimum in various categories at hiring. Before we had FTO's I broke in totally different types and they were outstanding in their differences. From Charlie Sullivan who was super sleuthful in every circumstance, to an opera singer who rolled down the window to aria the populous into a peaceful lull, and even a Pete Sarna who was ready to do a Master's Thesis on everything he witnessed (ever write anything on our off duty gun battle sharing a single snubnose 38?), all were fantastically part of our very prideful OPD. I wasn't any stouter than a young Tom Hanks early on and while song and dance communication skills helped me get most into the car, I recall gratefully Jim Mitchell pounding missionary style at a suspect's apex with his gloved fist making an eventually compliant bad guy withdraw his teeth from my arm. Yes, I basked in a certain bravado when the big guys like Mike Wilson covered me andemboldened me to bark low octave orders with the best of them. Another time while attending to something as a simple abandoned car I was in the early morning hours slowly surrounded by a half dozen very menacingly very dark >bad guys who couldn't care less about my puny white punk-ass, as they so respectfully acknowledged my supportless color of authority, and drawn 38 until I discovered Super Willie and his Mighty Cargo. And how often did I feel the comfort of a Fred Foster, Sanford Wiseman, and Jim Washburn who were gentle giants, but giants nevertheless? I wished I had been bigger and stronger at the time, but also thank God the hiring standards included somewhat demanding physical abilities for all of those with whom I worked to make an overall difference that counted well. So, if there are different typologies in talents, abilities, physical characteristics, and so on, isn't it a sense of comfort that the mean for all those talents skews the curve toward the higher standards and not to thelower direction? ronoz ***Back to top From: "Ron Oz" <RONOZAWAY@HOTMAIL.COM> Communication is about writing skills but even more so as a cop it is about getting your meaning across. One poster recently wrote that a good cop needs communication skills to talk a bad guy into the back seat of a police car, and implied that physical force shouldn't be part of the equation. I think any good guy can be asked to please step in, but a real bad guy has to be told and if necessary physically assisted. Communication on the street is in large measure non verbal. Physical appearance is a much better color of authority than any song and dance. While I happen to think I'm fair enough at writing skills, others lose no opportunity to delete at the mere sight of my name. I have a style that communicates to some and fails with others. District Attorney Frank Coakley took the occasion a couple of times to tell me he enjoyed reading my reports. He thought they were refreshingly different. I wish only that I had entered the Department in 1920 when Earl Warren was a deputy DA so that I might have had some influence on him. [trivia: DA's office was formed same year as OPD... 1853]. While Pete Sarna, Bob Vanort, Frank Morris, Jane Duncan, and many others were some of the best OPD writers in my experience, I was blessed to be mentored in a sense by two of the very best. Lieutenant/Captain/DC/Chief George Hart was so good that he virtually single fingerly wrote or rewrote practically everything that would somehow affect the Department's reputation. His boyish charm never eluded the fact that he was a master with words and could communicate meaning despite the handicap of rules of syntax and grammar. While Athos, Porthos, and Aramis were out doing the street cop thing, Hart was the twin brother for King Louis Gain IV, cast in the eighth floor tower wearing the iron mask of non-entity for years. He did so dutifully, effectively and with such charm that all who worked for and with him would easily have joined a new department if he chose to bolt. I fell instantly in love with him the moment one very late evening I was new to the old Planning and Research and I thought the light cast onto the street from our office was the only one still on when I heard a key in the door lock turn. So new, so green, so naive and ignorant, I was afraid to be discovered having done something wrong that my eyes were wide open hoping it was the janitor. Worse, it was a command officer who would surely challenge my unauthorized attendance. Ever so wrong, this charming guy set his stuff down, sat and lit a pipe, and then began discussing some of the day's issues. Ever since, while camaraderie can be confirmed with secret handshakes ours was always a knowing smile sharing a common understanding that while often we were in a very absurd game in a very absurd world, we still played it well and hid our true observations of it even better. Then there was Chief Gain. He truly sat astride the Ivory Tower and was regarded as the Zeus so far above the clouds of normal street duty that many felt he was alien to our true purpose. I didn't see him quite this way, and although there can be volumes written to coincide with the many different feelings of all who worked for him, I can choose to say how he benefited me. He was meticulous, yes anal, about raising the communication writing skills of all of us. He was never contemptuous in my estimation about this, but he was certainly frustrated to a wrath. He never communicated well with the troops, but to some individuals, like me as a lowly patrolman, he took a surreptitious route to communicate. Having grown from less fortunate beginnings as an East Oakland youngster he unquestionably had what he assumed to be the best interests of Oakland in mind. The barrier to his office wasn't a six foot wall; it was a much larger obstacle in the sense that most would rather escape his presence than be in it. As for communication he was a pleasant surprise for me. Chief Gain was a self taught intellectual and as such his achievement, standards and motivation were very high. He was brilliant for demanding that the meaning come across in a written communication clearly and without a chance for misinterpretation or ambiguity. He held me to a double standard in the sense that his wry smile would reveal a certain admiration, if overt disapproval, for my politically incorrect indiscretions, and an obvious approval if I was able to nuance them into passable language. A case in point was my comprehensive Dog Study that was done in total secrecy and revealed fully to my Captain only as we were to enter into the Chief's Office. The Captain stepped into my private office (yes, imagine a Patrolman with a private office on the eighth floor, a goldfish bowl, a dartboard with my commanding officer's face on it placed humorously on the backside of the door so he never saw it, and asked only to see it briefly. I gave it to him and he was shocked to see my positive recommendation for 18 Dogs. Fearing Chief Gain's reaction of probable Bull Conners proportions he wanted to berate me but we were late. We went into the Chief's Office and the Captain mentioned to the Chief in blanched and pusillanimous fashion that he had not yet had time to see my report. The Chief read it silently for what seemed a long time. He said, "I like it." My Captain said, "I thought you would." Then they shit canned it. I wish to confess something else. I did very well in our Academy and relied on a memory that still serves me well to recall everything I was newly and strangely learning by absolute rote. None of this cop stuff made any sense to me, but give me a test and no one would ever discover my real ignorance. Anyway, I was due to give the Valedictorian speech in the auditorium. In the audience were families, and dignitaries. I got up to express my first official communication on the Oakland Police Department and I absolutely froze at the podium. Mercifully someone finally shoved me aside and continued the ceremonial process. ronoz From: "Greg Smith" <skyking@surewest.net> From what I have read on this site in the last few days I am the only officer to have hurled himself over a 10 ft fence in one smooth, sweeping, majestic motion while in a foot chase with a fleeing suspect in 1974. The most unique and humorous element of this great physical feat is the fence was 6 ft high on the take-off side and 10 ft high on the landing side. The foot chase took place through a parking lot which abutted the rear lot of the Casper 's near Lake Merritt , at about E 15th St and 1st Ave. At ballistic speed, as I was nearing the apex of my flight, I realized the 6 ft fence was built on top of a 4 ft retaining wall. My 25 year old, 193 pound, adrenaline hyped, rookie body encountered no damage upon the subsequent crash landing. Don't think I'd try that today... Greg Smith 6822T ***Back to top From: "Ron Oz" <RONOZAWAY@HOTMAIL.COM> Andy is obviously a very bright guy or he wouldn't have been on OPD working the Oakland streets for so long would he? Yes, an Oakland cop is sometimes a docent, a public relations person, and sometimes his/her job could actually be done by a person in a wheelchair. Note Andy's first two criteria... ability to communicate and to listen. Yes, no doubt. But that's a given, not a highlight. The other criteria simply weren't hallmarks of the job. We shouldn't be satisfied just with "the ability" but rather questioning whether we are hiring, promoting and working along side those who excell. Andy didn't successfully or effectively (there may be a distinction today) work the streets 15 years without the equivalent of having to climb a six foot fence or two, chase a bad guy on foot a few blocks or so, or wrestle some malcreant. I can guess that many of these incidents requiring a physical exertion greater than lifting a pen or pointing a finger occurred coincidentally while answering a barking dog call or checking an abandoned car. The point is simply that an Oakland Cop's job is one of universal talents and demands which may be called upon simultaneously, spontaneously, impulsively, intuitively... and at any time very demandingly. Sure, you can train a monkey to do some of our work, a paraplegic for others, and even some of us old retirement farts could be called back to do most of it. The point is that anyone indeed can do a part of our work, but it takes a very special few to be able to all of it. Everyone should stop looking at the job so linearly, so differentially, so casually. As I recall, jumping over the six foot fence, dragging the dummy, and frankly performing other pretty easy aspects to determine our physical fitness came well after our qualifications were determined as to mental acuity and even the interview. In other words, a cop, and yes indeed especially an OPD, very especially an OPD, should finally ALSO be in top shape when first entering the force. What was that last word? Of course we feel a kinship for all peace officers. But there are those of us who feel OPD is (was)heads above all other Departments, and we also have peculiar respect for a few other departments that we feel are in our lofty league. Things may have changed, and maybe today being as good as everyone else, and hiring, promoting, and assigning members with standards that address the lowest common denominators of our job is regarded as suffcient. It wasn't, and many of us feel it shouldn't be. Mediocrity and good-enough is a standard for some, but never for The Best. Oakland deserves The Best, and now more than ever needs The Best. Discussing ways in which we can be The Best makes a lot more sense, and will be a lot more rewarding, for all concerned. Smart, Heart, and Tough... Pride is in the distinction! ronoz From: andy4L8@aol.com
As far the city managers daughter getting special treatment - that may or may not be the case - I don't know and quite frankly don't care. The reason I say that is there have been officers over time have done things both on duty andoff whom it would appear from looking from the outside in had there jobs saved because they were so and so son, daughter, nephew, niece etc... While others who may not have had an inside person watching out for there well being have been shown the door (and with no call box key to get back in) Being connected has its benefits like it or not the way I see it. Got a feeling that not many of those types of people are around. ***Back to top From: "Michael Martin" <mjmartin@volcano.net> Warning: A few of my recent OPEN-line digests were truncated, so I am not certain whether or not this part of the "wall" exchange has been covered.. Also, it may have ended up a bit linger than some of those with limited attention spans can handle.. As I recall the test that includes wall came about as the result of a lawsuit by a female applicant who could not do the pushup-situp-chinup test that was in place in the early 70s; that's the one I took in 1971. The "new" test was supposed to be more job related by simulating what the personnel department decided was/were job related activities. (I think that candidate who challenged the old test was a "policewoman" who wanted to be a "police officer" or whatever they called the position then. Like someone noted, the names have been adjusted.) If memory serves, the new test came to be in 1975; Chip Stewart was the OPD Personnel Lt. They selected, randomly they said, a group of working officers to take the test to validate the events and get an idea of what makes a "passing" time. The group actually took in a wide range of officers as to years of experience, age, and of course apparent physical condition. Some of the most fit looking, did not do as well as predicted, some of the least fit looking did pretty well. Go figure. I was in the group, probable in the middle of the apparent fitness range. The various tasks were explained, and the explanation of the wall was that they were encountered in the foot pursuit of suspects, and the city building code prohibited a solid fence of a height greater than 6'. The balance beam was 4" wide, based on the fact that solid fences were frequently of 2x4 construction and this was a fair width to expect one to balance on. Think how restrictive it would have been if a cyclone fence were the standard. Once the test group finished the test, the pin-heads did the math and came up with the 2 minute, 30 seconds as a pass-fail point. I remember many of the participants discussing the test afterwards as a pretty good Replication of a short "through the yards" pursuit: a short sprint, over the wall (a fence), another sprint, balance beam, drag the dummy and put it on the platform (to simulate the back of a vehicle or wagon) and sprint to the finish line (Cleo's for breakfast??). I don't think the person who challenged the original test passed this one either, but it was considered much more job related than a bunch of sit-ups, pull-ups and burpies... The only thing I think they missed was a sprint up a flight or two of stairs; no elevators in those 3 story bastard-factories like the ones on Brentford or at W.Grand/Chestnut. Mike Martin Sgt, Ret. (1971-1996) From: "Ron Oz" <RONOZAWAY@HOTMAIL.COM> I think the background investigator, unless he's inquiring for a Wendy's Food Security position, would be rather unimpressed with just "What can I do to help you... and then does it without complaint." No, I think any background investigator for which some form of advance Law Enforcement criteria was the focus would rather hear somethng like: 1. This person you're enquiring about worked diligently and effectively as an Oakland Police Officer. 2. This person showed energy, drive, initiative, ambition, intelligence, judgment, creativity and imagination. And, that's our standard. 3. She could even today scale a six foot fence, drag and carry a 150lb dummy, and pass any physical agility test for any police agency in the US today. Why are we dumbing ourselves down? Why do we settle for the golf course, offering to help, working without complaint, everyone can do it type of standard? Why can't we distinguish between leisure and work? Why do we settle for mediocrity over challenge? Isn't belonging to the top 5% better than sitting on our comfortable bottom? ronoz From: R Souza <Nodui@earthlink.net> Date: Sat, 30 Apr 2005 07:18:14 -0700 Andy, Very well said. I was called about a month ago by an background Investigator, doing a background on a retired officer. The investigator asked me "What kind of officer was he" ,and I thought well. he can scale a six foot wall and punch out a suspect with a one punch. I told this seasoned "non OPD" sergeant, that this retired officer was the one that arrives at the scene of your call and asked " What can I do to help you?" then does it without complaint. The Investigator said "That's what we want" Good job Andy, and see you on the golf course. Bob Souza It was an onview at 14th and BDWY purse snatch. Susp was 17 and league 440yds(before they ran the 400 meters) champ from Mc Clymonds High. Good someone remembers and even got a story re: this in Bill Fisets column. See, u guys arnt that old after all or at least they brain cells are still replenishing fasterthan disappearing. ***Back to top From: Jim Coleman <mztgringo@yahoo.com>
From: "Attwood" <blatt@pcisys.net> BlankIn 1951 wasn't the wall more like 8 Ft.. and the attic opening in an 8 Ft. ceiling. Both had to be approached just right or you wouldn't make it. Now we know what to have for entertainment at the banquet, anyone up to building the props. Just the 6 Ft. wall would be good along with a liability release. Bob Attwood From: "Jim Simonson" <jimcarsimo@earthlink.net> Below is the e-mail Vickie Darnell sent to me after I forwarded the six foot wall article to her and Nolan at their ranch. I have seen her working with their huge horses and it is quite a sight. Jim Simonson Jim, You have my permission to do whatever you wish with my email message to Chip Johnson. Hey, let's have some fun! Set up a time for me to run the physical agility test. I'm serious and I'm ready! Any time. I have NO problem embarassing Greg Lowe or even the new chief! Vickie Darnell ----- Original Message ----- From: Nolan & Vickie Darnell Mr. Johnson, Please contact me, regarding the change in the physical agility test for becoming a police officer. I was with the Oakland Police Department from 1977-1988 and one of the first females to be hired to work uniformed patrol. When I took the physical agility test, I was able to scale the six-foot wall, drag the 150 lb dummy "out of harm's way" and complete the entire test within the prescribed 2 minutes and 30 seconds time limit. I even had 30 seconds to spare! I was twenty-three years old at the time, female, 5'2'' tall, 105 lbs AND a minority. I am of Chinese and Irish heritage. I am willing to give you an interview for some sort of rebuttal article to your article about lowering the standards of the physical agility test. In fact, I am even willing to take the agility test again, at age 51, to show how ridiculous lowering standards is! During my time on the Oakland Police Dept. I had to climb over many walls and fences, help elderly and handicapped people up, many times weighing much more than 150 lbs. when they had fallen out of bed, and pursue suspects on foot, requiring me (and any police officer) to be physically fit. This lowering of standards is just plain stupid! Please check with former female officers who passed the physical agility test with no problem. Level playing field? Ha! I say, if you want to play policeman/woman, get in shape! Vickie Darnell P.S. I telephoned you, years ago, when Ann's Cafe closed. You wrote a very flattering article about the owner, Fran. I called you because, as a female officer, I saw a different side to her. Another side of the so-called level playing field... ***Back to top From: "C. Blevins" <cblevins@rraz.net> As to walls, in the Marine Corps (Old Corps) we used to do the 10' wall. Connie Blevins From: "Samuel Maddux" <sammaddux@earthlink.net> Well, I have to wade in on this topic. It is somewhat grandiose to state that veteran officers should be held to the same physical standards as are new recruits. Many veterans, having done the job over a number of years have sustained injuries that do not allow the body to respond as it did in earlier, non injury years. I have great doubts that many would enter the profession if they could be fired because they could not meet the physical standards which are the same for all members. It is one thing to just let yourself become "out of shape" due to neglect. However, injuries in the line of duty generally occur because the individual officer constantly did more than just respond to radio calls. If you don't chase the bad guy through the yards, over the fences, etc. then you certainly minimize the chances of being injured. With the exception of overtime and within a certain rank, police officers are paid the same. Whether to take on the dope dealers in front of Scotty's Liquor's or to avoid them is dependent on the individual officer(s). For many officers it is simply enough to go on patrol, respond to assigned calls, write a few "safe" citations and go home at the end of the shift. However, there are many who jump in the fray and create statistics. Those are the guys who get injured. I must say, that the majority of officers in Oakland , at least in past years (and probably still so), are the pro-active ones who readily jump into the fray. I have to tell you that for many years in Oakland there were a HUGE number of officers, technically assigned to "light duty" assignments while still doing the job and, I might say, quite well. Although assigned to a light duty status for quite a few years I was never questioned about donning a uniform and responding to events such as Rodney King Riots, Earthquake, Oakland Hills Fire, and while working a non-light duty assignment as a Robbery Investigator, serving search warrants, making arrests, etc. etc. Due to my status "light duty" I could have simply declined to do these jobs. However, choosing to not do that, I'd like to think that due to experience, realizing my limitations and knowing my back was covered by exceptional partners that I was responding properly and that I was not putting my partner(s) in more danger due to my physical limitations. Over a period of years in this situation I never once found a situation that my physical limitations proved to be a problem. I'm not saying these things for personal accolade but to point out that I was only one of many officers who were working in the same situation. I can name any number of officers in light duty assignments who commonly took on situations that many full duty officers would not eagerly respond to. With one swoop of the pen Oakland changed its light duty policy over night and many who had worked light duty for years were forcibly retired. Most of these guys would have gladly taken the disability retirement if it had been offered/not opposed by the Department years before when they were placed in light duty assignments. That would have allowed them to go out at 75% until their 25th anniversary. Just take a poll and see how many were dispatched from light duty to disability retirement around 1996 and see how many were under retirement age at that time. I might agree to have similar standards for all officers who have not sustained debilitating injuries on the job. And, of course lets consider that in this politically correct age that the age requirements for hiring officers is completely different today than when many of us started a few years ago. Someone can retire from the military at age 28-30 and still earn a retirement from a police department after 20-25 years. However, in comparison, after 25 years the military guy is 55 years of age while the guy who starts the police job at 21 is only 46. I have to tell you, that even with some injuries, I felt pretty damn great at 46. Those who make the statements that all officers should be held to the same standard, in general, haven't sustained a serious injury in the line of duty. It is real easy to criticize someone for smoking when the person criticizing has never smoked or, to criticize someone for being over-weight when you have never had a weight problem. Hey, I'm sorry for rambling, but just a few spontaneous thoughts...not really thought out, and right off the hip. Sam Maddux ***Back to top From: dondisc2@aol.com In a message dated 4/28/2005 6:29:56 P.M. Pacific Standard Time, vegasjack@aol.com writes: Shorter people, not matter what physical condition will have a harder time completing this task. So is the test favoring taller people? What if the wall obstacle was exactly one foot higher than the applicant's height. Wouldn't this make to a more fair test? A 6' '5" applicant, would have to scale a wall 7'5 high. Hmmmm, interesting! Don't have the answer, just keeping the Openline 415 regarding this issue going. Jack Lundquist Jack be nimble, Jack be quick, Jack jumped over a fence 6 foot 6. don Shakespeare discher From: "Edwards, Bob" <edwards@champlain.edu> Alright, let's go back to the main issue, scaling a six foot wall. I realize that many fences are considered 6 feet tall. Having said that, is it truly fair that everybody has to scale a 6 foot fence. Is this the true reason a 6 foot high obstacle was chosen in the first place? My real question is, if it fair to say everybody has to scale a six foot wall to pass the test? Jack I contend that it is an objective standard based on the typical residential back yard fence ordinance. The current trend of the Cooper standard is totally unrelated to the job. Shorter people, not matter what physical condition will have a harder time completing this task. So is the test favoring taller people? What if the wall obstacle was exactly one foot higher than the applicant's height. Wouldn't this make to a more fair test? A 6' '5" applicant, would have to scale a wall 7'5 high. Hmmmm, interesting! actually you are incorrect in this view. Shaq would have a more difficult time getting over the fence than Spud. And when I was with the Nevada Academy which used Cooper I tested a guy who was 6-5 with arms almost to his knees. His stretch distance was off the chart but he barely passed the pushup portion because he had to push his body twice as far as those with a "normal reach". Don't have the answer, just keeping the Openline 415 regarding this issue going. isnt it a 425 F ? r edwards 6773 (ret) From: Daveymc29@aol.com We had a fireman that stood a towering 5' 1/2 inch, with lifts. So he got an advantage over the 4'11" female, by shear height. She managed to get her healthy "upper body" over and they pulled her on over to complete the test and our hero had to take a second shot at it. He did pass and is now a proud Chief in our Department. We had an incident when "Dancin' Jackson brought him back to my station and told me he shouldn't be out playing in the street, or something to that effect. If you knew Jackson , he was a tad over 5' ½ inch, probably closer to 6'6" and not a pencil thin guy either. I had to maintain dignity and pretend not to laugh until I had locked myself in my room. The little lady fell in love (often) with an engineer on the fireboat while I was there and got permission somehow to come down and see if she could be a "boat person." Her choice was to be Pilot, but the windows in the pilothouse were much to tall. From the wheel she couldn't see the water less thana thousand yards away. Probably fine on the open sea but wouldn't work on the Bay. I held my tongue then also somehow and the problem went away as she rather be below with the engineer, or was it below the engineer. Dang, ageis making me so forgetful From: "Bill Danenhower" <wgdanenhower@directcon.net> A lot of guys used to mentioned in the same sentence as Connie by the lieut. As in: "Why can't you be more like Conard Blevins?" Bill Danenhower From: "Michael Martin" <mjmartin@volcano.net> Wow!! A coast-to-coast pissing contest!! Only on OPENline. Ya gotta love it! And while I'm here.. a belated "Thank You" to Frank Mellott for giving me the honor last week of being mentioned in the same sentence as Connie Blevins. Mike Martin Sgt, Ret. (1971-1996) ***Back to top From: "Dave Politzer" <dave@atticusmortgage.com> I started in 1975. The only test we were required to take at that time was to order from the waitress at Colonial Doughnuts in a commanding voice, " I'll take a Rosette with my coffee" and then be able to leave the establishment without being charged. I think it was called the infamous "Friday Night Field Assignment"....(We of course always left a tip- in case Jim Simonson had a camera in the back). Secondly, we had to be able to enter and leave King Wa restaurant in Downtown China Town after ordering King Wa Chow Mien "Hong Kong Style" without being observed or harassed by Iggy Chin and his Vice buddies that were always there on "surveillance ". It was rough, but somebody had to do it. The "wall thing" just doesn't seem so important when you contrast it against the difficult tasks we in the 82nd Recruit School had to endure.................... Dave Politzer From: Wes Horn <wwh112@email4us.net> OK, I've read all of the personal email's that you guys have written to me. And I agree that this has gotten too personal and that was never my intent. I won't place blame, but rather accept responsibility for my part in this and admit that it got way out of hand. OPENLINE is not the forum for this type of personal jousting, so I will let this topic die. I think it has been kicked around enough and we all know each other's positions (you guys certainly know mine). Kevin my apologies to you and my apologies to all of the members on OPENLINE for having to put up with me the last couple of days. I guess I was feeling my oats after passing the P.T. test....I'm not leaving though....Wes From: Wes Horn <wwh112@email4us.net> You'll get no argument from me on that one Victor, I couldn't agree more....Wes From: chuckstop@comcast.net you forgot to mention Bobby Thistewait and Bob Prentice when you mention some understated "tough guys" on the department. Also Harry Nielson, my old partner on the vice squad was no slouch. Chuck Herbert 6088 From: kgatbmf@aol.com Personal insults aside, I will respond. You wrote, "You remind me of lots of guys that I've met in my lifetime who are "passive aggressive". You know the type who yells and screams real loud in the hope that you will be frightened and won't take them on." If anybody wrote you about me, no one who knows me would have supported that. I'm sure people may have a lot to say about me, but being afraid to take something orsomeone on isn't one of them. This was about you thinking there is a double standard because Veteran officers are treated differently than not even rookies, but applicants. You want the same standards for everyone and think all officers need to be in shape. What caused the conflict wasn't the "in shape" part, it was about respecting other officers enough to give them some credit for knowing what they need to do for the job and that they have earned that right by being out thereeveryday and not only doing it, but by surviving it. This wasn't about OPD v. HPD, except you base you're opinions on what you've done and who you've worked with while at Hayward . Apparently, your experience is much different than mine at Oakland , which is normal from my experience with other agencies. Oakland during my time there was just different and in a VERY good way. The reputation the Department has enjoyed worldwide supports that. There was never a statement on my part that, "if they ain't from O.P.D. then they ain't shit". I've met a lot of pretty outstanding officers in a lot of other departments. However, I stand by what I said, that as a group, "never have I found anyone close to those I was trained by and worked with or asefficient in getting the job done." You think nothing you have written was personal, but it was. Again, as Larry wrote, you made your point, so what was all the rest of what you wrote for? Finally, you wrote you "have received so many personal emails that have apologized for your responses." No one at OPD needs to apologize for me. And if someone at OPD feels they need to apologize to someone because someone else said they believe that OPD was simply the best Department with officers who performed at their best, well, then there's been a lot more at OPD that has been lowered than the wall. KG Kevin Gors ***Back to top From: "Victor Sandoval" <victorsandoval1@comcast.net> Guys, let's not get into a pissing contest, everyone who has put on a police uniform should be proud of that and the department they work for. As Rodney King put it 'Can't we all get along" Vic Sandoval 7060 OPD Retired From: "Ron Oz" <RONOZAWAY@HOTMAIL.COM> Wow.. what a thread... This weekend the lowering standards topic will be added to the www.OPD940.com website. Even when a controversial topic gets to the edge of personalities there are nuggets, express and implied, that benefit all of us. I know many would ask Kevin and Wes to take it outside, but I'm enjoying it. I can also vision some women just cringing at some of the things said, and others feeling quite comfortable. This says something too. The issue of lowering standards is not so much, in my estimation, one with such a clear focus. I don't think any OPD is sexist. Concerned... yes. I wish I had time right now to comment contemporaneously on sex, sexism andsexuality. Of course there is an OPD culture, and it exists as a proud sub-culture among all cops. There is entry, initiation, and ritual that emblazon a coat-of-arms tattoo on each of us. ronoz From: kgatbmf@aol.com Personal insults aside, I will respond. You wrote, "You remind me of lots of guys that I've met in my lifetime who are "passive aggressive". You know the type who yells and screams real loud in the hope that you will be frightened and won't take them on." If anybody wrote you about me, no one who knows me would have supported that. I'm sure people may have a lot to say about me, but being afraid to take something or someone on isn't one of them. This was about you thinking there is a double standard because Veteran officers are treated differently than not even rookies, but applicants. You want the same standards for everyone and think all officers need to be in shape. What caused the conflict wasn't the "in shape" part, it was about respecting other officers enough to give them some credit for knowing what they need to do for the job and that they have earned that right by being out there everyday and not only doing it, but by surviving it. This wasn't about OPD v. HPD, except you base you're opinions on what you've done and who you've worked with while at Hayward . Apparently, your experience is much different than mine at Oakland , which is normal from my experience with other agencies. Oakland during my time there was just different and in a VERY good way. The reputation the Department has enjoyed worldwide supports that. There was never a statement on my part that, "if they ain't from O.P.D. then they ain't shit". I've met a lot of pretty outstanding officers in a lot of other departments. However, I stand by what I said, that as a group, "never have I found anyone close to those I was trained by and worked with or as efficient in getting the job done." You think nothing you have written was personal, but it was. Again, as Larry wrote, you made your point, so what was all the rest of what you wrote for? Finally, you wrote you "have received so many personal emails that have apologized for your responses." No one at OPD needs to apologize for me. And if someone at OPD feels they need to apologize to someone because someone else said they believe that OPD was simply the best Department with officers who performed at their best, well, then there's been a lot more at OPD that has been lowered than the wall. KG Kevin Gors ***Back to top From: "Victor Sandoval" <victorsandoval1@comcast.net> Guys, let's not get into a pissing contest, everyone who has put on a police uniform should be proud of that and the department they work for. As Rodney King put it 'Can't we all get along" >Vic Sandoval 7060 OPD Retired Cat got your tongue or what??? From: Vegasjack@aol.com Hey Ron! This is the best Openline "415" yet. :-) and I have managed to stay out of it so far. :-) Jack Lundquist From: Wes Horn <wwh112@email4us.net> Kevin very touching. I thought about taking some time to formulate a response, to see what the climate would be with regards to your last tirade, but I decided probably against my better judgment not to take the easy way out. I didn't set out to make this O.P.D. vs H.P.D. and I still won't, I simply posted my position on a topic and you have gone 5150 on me. I have nothing but respect for O.P.D. but I kind of figured you would try to twist my words and make it an H.P.D. vs O.P.D. for the last time it ain't about that! Every officer should have pride in their agency, but for you to disrespect every other cop who is not from O.P.D. is below the belt. My guess is that this is not the overwhelming mind set of the people who belong to OPENLINE. The great thing about the law enforcement community (for clarification that wouldn't be just O.P.D. it would include all law enforcement agencies)is that one can go to an away training school and meet cops from other agencies and immediately there is a connection, a bond, a sense of oneness, the brotherhood if you will. You apparently don't subscribe to this philosophy and I get the impression that if they ain't from O.P.D. then they ain't shit. You have taken this so personal and I have racked my brain trying to figure out why a posting on OPENLINE that didn't attack anyone would cause you to nut up. Any cop who has been around for a while has war stories to tell and has had to survive and fight for their lives, yes even cops from an agency other than O.P.D. For you to assume that the only place that this kind of stuff happens is in Oakland , well you live in a fantasy world. And finally, read all of my posts about this topic, not once did I attack you personally or the organization from which you retired. This started out as fun bantering back and forth, but it has taken a turn for the worse and I am honestly embarrassed for you. I think that your frail attempt to bully me speaks to the fact that you are close minded, opinionated and it's your way or the highway. You remind me of lots of guys that I've met in my lifetime who are "passive aggressive". You know the type who yells and screams real loud in the hope that you will be frightened and won't take them on. Sorry dude but you don't intimidate me. I wasn't going to say this because I wanted to be the bigger man here, but I have received so many personal emails that have apologized for your responses and informed me that you don't speak for O.P.D. and I've not seen many that back your play. I'm not going to betray the confidence of those who wrote me, but dude you are way out touch and way out of line!....Respectfully submitted....Wes --- kgatbmf@aol.com wrote: Wow. what a topic. Reminds me of story many of you probably rely on when talking to youngsters. One old and one young bull on the top of the hill, looking at all the young heifers in the pasture. Young bull snorts and says, "I'm going to run down and get me one of them," and takes off. Old Bull says to himself, "I'm going to walk down and nail all the rest of them." ron ***Back to top From: kgatbmf@aol.com Well Wes, You've said some very interesting things, some I'll comment on and some I won't, because it just doesn't seem like you get it and that's probably because 1) you're not from OPD and 2) you make a lot of assumptions. As Larry wrote, you had your point, which is you believe all officers should be in shape, so what was all of the other stuff for? FYI, Larry is able to write you today because he survived an a--hole trying to kill him with a car. Being in tremendous physical shape helped, but more importantly because his mental toughness just wouldn't allow him to give up. Same reason after recovering, he was able to ride a bike across country, good physical conditioning, but amazing mental toughness. You said one of my comments was, "smothered in pride and it reeks of arrogance." You see that comes from belonging to OPD. Anyone on the street will tell you, "It ain't bragging if you can back it up." When I was in the Army I was recruited by several departments and guaranteed jobs by a few. Fortunately for me, the officers I talked to all admitted (even though it was painful for some) that OPD was at a whole different level than everyone else. So, that's where I went. After retiring, I have trained officers in over 70 different police departments across this country and in some others. Additionally, I have been involved on committees with brass from all of the so called "top" agencies in the country, LAPD, NYPD, Chicago, Houston, etc. and never have I found anyone close to those I was trained by and worked with or as efficient in getting the job done. So, I'll take that insult. You wrote, "you feel that here is a sense of entitlement for a veteran." Damn straight, all the way down to my seat in lineup. You complained, "I know I hated it when I was a young officer and I worked twice as hard as some veteran who didn't pull his or her weight." Too bad, it's called paying your dues. Get over it and make sure you fill the car up before shift change. In regards to Rudy's comment you wrote, "These are tough guys no doubt, but they didn't run after the bad guy jump fences and then get in a fight for their lives after doing all of this." See, that's where assuming get's you in trouble, oh yes they ALL have and would again if needed. They just wouldn't appreciate being disrespected by being asked to do a PT test. In your football analogy you wrote, "Remember when you played football and some other player had the ball carrier around the ankles and they hadn't gone down yet, you remember the stuff we dreamed about. Then somebody comes up after all the hard work of chasing the guy down is done and lays a bone crushing hit on the ball carrier (the crowd errupts on oohs and ahhs). But they didn't run the ball carrier down." So, they were there to accomplish the TEAM's goal. Man it sounds like you've got a lot of angst built up about you having to work harder than veteran officers, you having to chase a guy down in football and someone else get's the credit. You see the pattern here? Everything you're writing about is about you and I'm writing about "us". Something like that happened to me in football, I look up and say good hit man. Thanks for being there. You whine because they got the credit for your work. Again, get over it. Police work is a TEAM sport. You also asked what I consider a Veteran. Here's some help, 1. Officer sees bad guy 10 years younger, 50 pounds lighter and faster runner. a. rookie: takes off chasing bad guy exhausting himself and can't communicate or fight. b. Veteran: calls for perimeter, then circles block while announcing to neighborhood a child molester and rapist is loose in their backyards (ala Art Roth) until bad guy comes running back out of the yards and begs to bearrested so neighborhood won't kill him. 2. Officer sees 2 Hell's Angels on the way to club, one takes off at high speed. a. rookie: takes off after speeder and eventually get's to write a killer tag. b. Veteran: stops other guy (ala Ray Vig.), finds drugs and put's #1 bomb maker who previously blew up DA off the street for another 10 years. 3. Officer dispatched to 459 Res., searches house, bad guy gone. a. rookie: writes 459 report and goes on to next call. b. Veteran: yells, "Come down from the ceiling or I'm going to start ventilating it!" (ala Rubber Chicken) and bad guy says. "OK, don't shoot" and surrenders. When asked how he knew bad guy was up there, officer says he didn't,he just thought he'd give it a try. FYI, you don't get to decide when you're a Veteran. The people you work with do. For some that comes quickly and for others it may never come no matter how long they are on the PD. You wrote, "I feel that we all get paid the same and should be held to the same standards." Well, no we don't. Veteran's get paid more because theynow more and can perform more effectively, not because they can perform a PT test. You made a bunch of other inane comments about the military, etc. but let's just enclose it all in this, the complaints about "lowering the standard", even if the new standards meet what the State or other departments ask for is disturbing because Oakland has always been way above everyone else in performance and standards, seeing that being degraded is upsetting and once again reinforces what Mikey Graham says, "Oakland is a good place to be FROM." KG Kevin Gors From: "Dave Politzer" <dave@atticusmortgage.com> I started in 1975. The only test we were required to take at that time was to order from the waitress at Colonial Doughnuts in a commanding voice, " I'll tak a Rosette with my coffee" and then be able to leave the establishment without being charged. I think it was called the infamous "Friday Night Field Assignment"....(We of course always left a tip- in case Jim Simonson had a camera in the back). Secondly, we had to be able to enter and leave King Wa restaurant in Downtown China Town after ordering King Wa Chow Mien "Hong Kong Style" without being observed or harassed by Iggy Chin and his Vice buddies that were always there on "surveillance ". It was rough, but somebody had to do it. The "wall thing" just doesn't seem so important when you contrast it against the difficult tasks we in the 82nd Recruit School had to endure.................... Dave Politzer From: Larry Eade <opd4ever@yahoo.com> The wall, no problem at 55yrs of age. I have been known to go a few rounds with the youngsters at the coliseum. But what is frightening to me is jumping the wall and finding Sam Holtan, lying unconscious on the ground, in need of medical help and needing to be dragged to safety. If I had my preferences I would rather drag that 160 pound dummy than Sam's 320 pound tummy. Lord Have Mercy!!!!!! Gotcha Sammy, see you in Reno -the magnificent bald one or follicly challenged to be politically correct. From: "Randy Pope" <randypope@comcast.net> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tai" <mustangtai@yahoo.com> Since I fit the "minority" and "female" category, know that I got this job all-on-my-own, and have no problem getting over the wall, etc. etc. etc. Come to think about it, I could probably have done it while still carrying that extra 30lbs. (since lost :-) of post-baby weight. Exactly How LARGE are these candidates that Edgerly is supporting???? To state that they are trying to create a "level playing field" is a slap in my face. So, "ditto" what my fellow Motor Officer said.......... Somewhat limited, Tai ***Back to top From: "Dave Hunter" <Dave@Hunter.name> In 1975, when Command requested a test relative to our work on the street, I suggested a most common event that every officer does, far more than jumping fences, that could be used as a physical test. Take a standard 5'10" to 6' 0" male and have the candidate place his right arm behind his back! More than any other physical event we consistently run into a passively resisting male who refuses to comply. Usually two officers are dealing with this person, one officer on one arm and another officer on the other. Failure to be able to complete this maneuver can, and many times will, result in unwanted results, such as increased use of the level of force. Person's weighing 95 pounds will find such a task rather difficult, since most such suspects can potentially lift that weight with one arm. Somehow this suggestion was never taken seriously, which indicates to me that those in charge at the time were predisposed to eventually allow midgets, who can jump a three foot wall, to pass the physical agility test. In my minds eye, imagine the suspect walking down the street with a midget holding onto one arm screaming, "You're under arrest!!!" From: "Terence J. Green" <tdgreenhere@earthlink.net> Old timer tough guys: Ora (The Whale)Arnold , Jack (Mush Mit) Jordan, Bones Mc Connell, Jack Grasso (saw him hit a guy then step behind and catch the guy on his way down, Jack just laid him gently on the ground and started his arrest tag), Bob Thistlewaite was the best and then there was Snuffy McCormick the very definition of tough. I once saw street Sergeant Odell Sylvester in action with a 26" baton that was a thing of beauty. How about Al (The Silver Fox) York . Never saw anyone hit harder than Al. Many a miscreant was thumped in the staging cell waiting for the elevator, when the jail was on the 12th Floor of City Hall. OPD was always fully stocked with tough guys with hearts of gold, particularly when you needed cover. They were always there. Terry Green From: Vonbrauch1@aol.com Weeelllllll, two issues here. One is some type of a work related physical test is not only reasonable but prudent. ACSO's RTC fails a bunch of recruits for failure to meet physical standards and rightly so. An agency has a right to expect a new employee to last long enough to give them a return on their investment before they hit off or are retired on an injury. It's also fair to the recruit to know what is expected of them before they enter a program which they WILL fail if they cannot perform strenuous physical activities. Further, the argument offered by the powers that be to end the test is bogus because the same logic dictates the academic entry test be done away with. Hey, if they don't cut it by the "16th week" wash them out. I wonder who's going to pay for the first 16 weeks. At a time when the trend is for increased professionalism, this is wrong and believe me, it has nothing to do with race, creed, sex or anything else regarding "protected classes." All of the agencies I deal with would love to hire QUALIFIED women and minorities and believe me, there IS NO discrimination, for any reason, at police academies Second, the main reason (not mentioning the unions) continuing physical fitness standards are not in place is the cities and departments are not willing to absorb the Worker's Compensation, and attendant costs of allowing personnel to maintain their fitness on duty, thereby making ANY injury toward those ends "on the job injuries." The most successful thing I've seen so far is a premium payment for successfully passing an annual test. Oh, and while we're at it, what's the difference between a "disgusting widebody" officer and one who's in shape but 4' 11"and 90lbs? One will run out of gas and get hurt and the other won't save you and get hurt. K. J. (Jon) vonBrauch, 7049 From: Wes Horn <wwh112@email4us.net> Yeah, but I bet you can still get over the fence and drag a 160 lb dummy!....Wes From: "Sam Holtan" <sholtan@cableone.net> OK, OK, So I read the weight wrong, I can't help if I can't see as good as I used to. Sam H. From: "Sam Holtan" <sholtan@cableone.net> WOW, Bill Clark weighed 2251 lbs? And I thought I had put a lot of weight on. Sam H. ***Back to top From: Wes Horn <wwh112@email4us.net> What is interesting to me though is that some who have taken exception with what I've said have not really commented on my position that there should be no watering down of the test and that there should be no double standards. OK, I'll take the bait. Here's your answers: Response: Kevin, I think you spooled me and my reel is going to overheat...J.K. Anyway I really do appreciate your stance and let me clarify a few things one by one. I'll cut and paste your posting and then my responses. 1. There is NO double standard. The physical agility test is a "standard" for hiring, not a standard for maintaining your job. Response: I'll give you this one and I agree with your response. It is not a standard for maintaining one's job. My argument is I think it should be. I still believe that regardless of time on, one should be expected to perform at the same level as a rookie. Some people need to be pushed. Knowing that one must take a test every year in order to keep their job would motivate them to stay physically fit. >2. Why you ask? Because if it is a standard for maintaining your job, then the Department has to supply officers with the ability to meet that standard ie: health club membership, overtime for training, etc. and if it is part of your job and you are injured while doing it, it becomes a worker's comp issue, which the City will never take on. It is the City who has their own selfish reasons for not having a fitness standard, not the officers, who for the most part on their own do what they need to do and at their own risk. How many of us on our own spent hors and hors going over Dennis Collins' 10 foot wall and course? Response: We're not as far apart as you might think. I agree with you on this as well. My department does supply us with the ability to meet that standard. They pay for health club memberships, we also have a gym in the department (albeit very archaic) and as long as you log your workouts which includes playing basketball, tennis or whatever, then you are covered by workmen's comp if you are injured during those workouts. That's the way it should be for you guys too. 3. Why are we taking this personal, because a City Council member put her daughter, a candidate, who has NEVER spent one day on the street, with officers who have met the qualifications and paid their dues by putting their life's on the line everyday. You supported her position by coming up with this "double standard" crap, which it is not. Response: I do not support her position! The message in all of my postings on this topic are to the contrary. I do not believe in watering down the test, for anyone regardless of race, gender, age or time on. Period end of story! 4. Why is it not a double standard? Besides what I said above, veterans inny profession are given their "props". They've earned it. Go watch the Raiders practice, you will not see the Vets being put through the same paces as the rookies. It is given a Vet knows what he needs to do and will do it, that's how you survive to become a Vet. In the football analogy I gave about Lance House and Mike Martin running 1 lap and being ready for theeason, it is understood that if they couldn't perform at the level they needed to, then they'd do more. As Vets they KNOW what they need to do to get their job done. To tell them they needed to do something more would be disrespectful. Rookies get told what to do by Vets, so is the circle of life. You saying you doubt the guy you work with could get over a wall is the same as saying he can't do his job, which for the majority of us is about as big a slap in the face as you could give another cop. You have to trust who you work with, with your life. You're saying officers can't be trusted with knowing and doing what they need to do for the job, how can you trust them with anything else? Response: This point that you make seems like it is smothered in pride and it reeks of arrogance. By the tone of your response it seems that you feel that here is a sense of entitlement for a veteran. I have always felt that the only thing I as a veteran am entititled to, is picking my shift and vacation based on my seniority. I also believe that if I am competing for a special assignment and/or promotion and it comes down to me and one competitor, then I should get the nod if all things are equal and I am the senior officer. And what do you consider to be a veteran? It's very subjective and if it's based solely on time on then I think you have missed the boat. I've seen 10 year cops that couldn't hold a candle to a kid with 2 years on who is a natural and who works circles around other so called veterans. Should a so called veteran get any other special considerations? Should they rest on their laurels and have to do less work or should their quality of work or lack there of be overlooked? I know I hated it when I was a young officer and I worked twice as hard as some veteran who didn't pull his or her weight. I think this attitude is cancerous and counter productive. With regards to the individual that I referred to at my department who could not make it over a wall. No, he/she never let me down, but then there was never an occasion where they had to climb a 6 ft wall/fence to get to me. I never said that this person couldn't do their job, but I'll tell you that I am concerned for their health and well being and I can't help but wonder what the outcome would be if that situation were to arise. 6. No, conditioning is NOT why SWAT guys do PT. Doing PT together builds a sense of Team and team unity. The PT they do together is good enough for some, while others physically train even more. It's each one's individual responsibility to know what they need to do and they accept it because they are Vet's. Response: Point well taken, you are correct in saying they PT together to build a sense of team and unity. But I still submit to you the main reason they PT is so that they are physically able to deal with the physical and psychological demands that are expected of them during tactical operations. And when is the last time you saw a 300lb cop on the SWAT team? 6. The initial test is a test of will, preparation and desire. Officers who have already demonstrated those characteristics in the initial hiring phase, are then on-going and continually tested everyday on the street. A stupid PT test isn't going to prove their value or ability to perform as police officers. They do that everyday and in ways much more telling than climbing some wall in a static environment. So you see, it wasn't us missing the point and it's not about the love you have for us. It's been about giving veteran officers their proper respect. No one would disagree that officers need to have some level of physical conditioning, but many would disagree about being told "what" that should be and that some pencil pusher who has never done the job could decide what we need to do to "prove" to someone that we're still able. Or worse yet, some pencil pushing moron that CAN'T do the job on the street and that's why they're now pushing papers, deciding how someone who can do the job is going to be evaluated. Like Rudy said, there have been a whole lot of folks at OPD who after hiring, may look like they could never pass a PT test again and maybe they couldn't, but they'd never let you down when you needed them and that's what counts. KG Response: This is what I love about OPENLINE, we can agree to disagree, voice our opinions and talk about stuff that is important without getting mad at each other. But I must take exception with some of your comments in this last point. I know Rudy said that there are a bunch of guys that may not be able to pass the PT test but could open up a big can of whoop ass. I know the kind of individual that you are talking about and I'm going to make a football reference as well. These are tough guys no doubt, but they didn't run after the bad guy jump fences and then get in a fight for their lives after doing all of this. And as you and Rudy both stated they probably wouldn't pass the PT test so they wouldn't be able to help you chase after the guy. Scenario: Remember when you played football and some other player had the ball carrier around the ankles and they hadn't gone down yet, you remember the stuff we dreamed about. Then somebody comes up after all the hard work of chasing the guy down is done and lays a bone crushing hit on the ball carrier (the crowd errupts on oohs and ahhs). But they didn't run the ball carrier down. The guy that ran the ball carrier down put his time in the gym and was in shape. Anybody can lay a smack down on someone if they come up running to a fight in progress and level the guy while the guy who caught him is keeping him busy. No disrespect to the aforementioned tough guys, but I'm simply trying to state my position about how important it is to be physically fit. And believe me, I've had those out of shape guys come up and save my bacon when I caught the ball carrier and was holding them about the ankles. But I must admit that I am a bit surprised that a prior military man has a problem being told what to do. I've always been under the impression (from having it drilled into my head) that police departments are para military and that there is a rank structure similar to the military chain of command. Nobody likes being told what to do, but you said something that I struggle with, something I see as a double standard. You mentioned previously (in #4, I think)that "rookies get told what to do by Vets, so is the circle of life" (ah I can hear Elton John singing it now) yet you don't like being told what to do. You say that a "veteran deserves their proper respect." I agree with that statement, and the operative word is "proper" respect but we all have to pull on the rope in the same direction otherwise the mission doesn't get accomplished. I don't want to belabor this, my only point and it's a simple one, is that we need to all be in shape. It's a dangerous job that we do. Staying in shape is not only good for fighting, but it makes you more mentally aware. And I do feel that there is double standard that is fostered in police departments with respect to veterans. I feel that we all get paid the same and should be held to the same standards regardless of time on. And lastly, I had no idea that when I opened up my mouth that I would stir up a hornet's nest, but I still got nothing but love for you Kevin......Wes From: cordovajp@comcast.net ***Back to top Hey Val............ My comments weren't intended to cast a broad brush stroke for all women in police work or at OPD. We all know that we had some great female officers on OPD who did the job. I would consider you one of them. I just wanted to relay one of my personal experiences with a paricular female recruit. And if I offended, I apologize. Sincerely, Joe -------------- Original message -------------- Joe, I thought of responding, but thought of keeping my thoughts to myself. I figured I had no problem, always did the job. Should the requirements had been changed? I disagree, no they should have not been changed, but then nothing ever stays the same. Who knows, the change might be a healthy thing, one has to keep an open mine. Val From: <bill.gillespie@sbcglobal.net> Bill: And he was 40 when he did it! Bill Gillespie From: "Captain Bill Enger" <FISHKONA@HAWAII.RR.COM> I remember it well, chased a 459 suspect thru the back yards for 2 blocks. Must of jumped 6-7 fences and still got the suspect. One better, I remember when Jim Coleman chased down a 487PS suspect that was a Track star at one of Oakland 's high schools. Correct me if I am wrong. Bill Enger oooh, I just love it when you get riled up.... you are so narrative..... ron From: kgatbmf@aol.com Another giant... I'm sure Westbrook could climb a wall or scale a building... I held his teeth while he negotiated settlements... ronoz From: <bill.gillespie@sbcglobal.net> Chuck: I was a person who may have earned a reputation for knocking people on their ass with a single punch. However, I was an absolute amateur compared to the two that you mentioned and one that you forgot: Officer Grasso. Any old timers want to weigh in on this guy and include the gentleman who was caught on the car antenna? Bill Gillespie Chuck... Ernie was the greatest and would offer the shirt off his back.... and did... thanks for bringing up his name so I could think of him again... ron From: chuckstop@comcast.net When I took the OPD test(in 1956 back in Michigan State) we had to go over the wall like all other recruits, We had a bunch of guys from Detroit who would run at the wall and run straight into it without any attempt to go over. It was a thing of beauty to see these guys sho did not have a clue how to be athletic. Roy DeGraw should remember the entire program. Thank god I passed and came to California where I was in the 22nd recruit class and competed with Ernie Smith to be the head of the class. I won and he was always pissed at me for that. God rest his sole. We were close friends for many years. Chuck Herbert 6088 ***Back to top From: "Ron Oz" <RONOZAWAY@HOTMAIL.COM> [All comments regarding so-called lowering standards are for sure concerned about "dumbing" down the job. Too many shaped pegs, whittled by too many politically correct concerns, have been forced into the slot. I hope the following Imaginary OPD Recruiting Announcement says it all.] The Oakland Police Department wants to hire The Best. By the time you read this you'll believe it. We're looking for people to work a demanding and, yes, a sometimes hazardous job. However, it would be difficult to imagine a more rewarding job. It's not an easy job, it can be extra tough at times, but if we do it right we'll have one of the best cities in the country. Our location, weather, demographics, cultural attractions, heritage and diversity are an unbeatable combination. We feel that reaching our potential will be achieved by developing the best police department in the nation. We will not be influenced by any factor giving credit or debit to your gender, sexual orientation, race, ethnicity, national origin, or quite frankly whether you have any minority or majority status. We simply want to hire and train anyone we judge has the potential to be The Best. Everyone will be considered with equal regard. How the results fare with respect to some category you think you belong to is not our concern. Your new category will be as an Oakland Police Officer. Quite simply we will hire those interested in career positions. Every career with the Oakland Police Department begins after extensive classroom and field training followed with a minimum of 18 months of demanding police work "on the street." While later opportunities for advancement and entry into the diversity of other assignments are manifold, the criteria for hiring begins with a commitment to the citizens of Oakland that you can handle this job first, and handle it well. It is here that your mettle will be tested, your steel tempered, and those skills will be prerequisite to the rest of your career. We have certain parameters in our initial screen that simply set out the generic criteria that must be met first. We are not specific as to your preparation for the job, nor is our selection process exclusive as to where you were born, raised, educated or currently residing. If you were educated in Police Science or Criminology you will be on an equal footing with those educated in other fields, including academic and life experiences. There will be extensive report writing aspects to the job so preparation in technical writing and creative writing will be helpful. You will have to be both definitive and descriptive. Again, we want The Best. Our selection process is rigorous, but we know The Best wouldn't have it any other way. We want people to be smart, tough, compassionate and sensitive. But if you are overweight, or underweight, in any of the areas you won't be hired. We're looking for a good balance. Our next screen is to know if you're smart enough. A four-year degree from an accredited university is qualifying, but we're not looking for professors so we will administer an SAT type substitute to anyone wishing to apply. We expect a minimum 70% percentile score. You will also be given a closed, timed short essay test to assess your ability to communicate in writing. Those who qualify will have to submit to us a certification from your doctor as to passing our physical criteria along with an evaluation that concludes you are physically fit for the rigors of the job without restrictions or exceptions. Assuming this, you will be engaged in the physical agility phase, and not coddled with any exception. It can at a few crucial times be a very physical job and lives will be at stake. The final portal of our hiring process will evaluate the intangible. We will conduct an interview panel to form an impression of you as to your suitability for potential to join The Best. After all, it is an impression that you will project to citizens, in courts, among your fellow officers, and in many other circumstances where we expect all to regard you as The Best. The three person panel will be drawn especially from those officers regarded as well qualified and experienced in the duties that will be required of you. They will pass judgment as to whom you seem to be. You will be asked questions to gauge your character, your heart, your sensitivity, your ability to process situations, and generally to see who you are and whatyou're made of. Each panel member will rate his/her unsigned impression of you, without deliberating with the others, and drop his casting into a sealed box. It will take two votes to seal your fate. Each vote will be one of three choices: 1. It is my impression that the person interviewed HAS the potential to be among The Best as an Oakland Police Officer and I recommend hiring on a probationary status. 2. It is my impression that the person interviewed DOES NOT HAVE the potential. 3. I was unable to form a conclusive impression, and I recommend the person interviewed be rescheduled with a different panel. Those recommended will have a background check conducted and will also have to be evaluated by the City Physician or another. So there you have it. We need police officers, but all current members are dedicated to doing what it takes to fill the gap while we wait for The Best to join The Best. Good Luck, From: "Dave Politzer" <dave@atticusmortgage.com> Bill, I attended that line-up. I think we both collected about 6 hours overtime, if my mind does not fail me.............. Dave Politzer From: bill.gillespie@sbcglobal.net> Connie: The hardest I was ever hit on the job was by Tom Malone during that "test". It was a long day. I used to sit in the back row and was hammered by Ham Hands Howerton at the beginning of the test. Yes, it certainly was a different test and it did provide some insight into intestinal fortitude. Bill Clark was not big enough in those days to be part of the 'field test'. John Ream is on line and perhaps he can provide some insight as to what that bloc of training was called officially. Bill Gillespie ***Back to top From: <bill.gillespie@sbcglobal.net> Bob: You bring up some fond memories of that test as Lt. Terry Green put all of the SOS guys through that test. It was controversial. A Chinese officer considered making a Michael Jackson type complaint for the good faith assistance he received when motivating him to increase his vertical jump to get over the wall. Another officer nearly sustained life threatening injuries when he skidded out of control after jumping over the wall and landing in dog poop. Paul Musch was showing off doing dumbbell curls with the wall and finally, Lance House tripped and broke the wall. The argument still continues: Is that over the wall? The voting booths are open? Aah! The good old days and PT. Bill Gillespie From: WM H CLARK <bayclark@sbcglobal.net> The 6 foot wall and female candidates for OPD is a controversy that goes back many years. I got transferred to P&T Division not long before I retired from OPD and during my tenure in P&T we inaugurated a new obstacle course for candidates. In addition to the wall, it included a track, balance beam, and a platform to place the 160 pound dummy on after dragging it several yards. The wall represented the biggest challenge to female candidates and some people raised the question of what relevance the wall had to being an Oakland police officer. (Obviously, these people had never chased a suspect "southbound through the yards" and over fences that often were over 6 feet high.) All the female recruits in the academy during my stint in P&T, as well as the active female OPD members, successfully completed the physical agility testing for the department, including the wall. Additionally, many of the candidates who had difficulty scaling the wall went to the course (located in Estuary Park ) on their own time and, to their credit, practiced until they mastered it. Others never made it over and, consequently, were not hired. Thankfully, there were no high ranking city officials intervening on their behalf in those days. I was getting close to 50 when the new obstacle course was instituted, and I was in the 225lbs+ club that Connie Blevins mentioned, but I thought it was only fair that I should be able to do what we asked our rookies to do, so I went out to the park one day and completed the course. It was a "piece of cake" and anyone who couldn't do it should not be thinking about a career in law enforcement...Its been close to 20 years since I left OPD but, like Sam Maddux, I know I could do it again today if I had to (and I'm a couple of years older than Sam). Bill Clark Not to be argumentative, but many of us have indeed chased bad guys a mile, through brush, over fences, through houses, and then had to do battle to boot.... How about the foot car chases? Donuts, Doggie Dogs and Kwik Way fries notwithstanding, the first two years on the street were active and strenuous on many an occasion. Thank goodness for the young officers and the healthy officers. Yes, some will as time passes no longer be agile, but if you want a healthy department and an effective street force you better have those on the street in better shape. Besides, respect from our clients begins with the impression we give them. Donut bellies and petite stature cannot be substituted with mere color of authority. The bad guy looks at you and says to himself: "Should I run? Should I do battle? Should I show off to my friends?" ronoz From: "Edwards, Bob" <edwards@champlain.edu> One thing that has been missed in this discussion is the rational basis of the test that was used for 20 + years. What an improvement it was when the Department looked at what a police officer did and replaced the old test. Bob Connor and I took the test in some closet in the basement of the PAB where we had to do chin ups, burpees, sit ups, and a couple of other things required by by HS football coach but never repeated on the job. The result was something that was sensible. We ran, lifted a body to a gurney, made it over a 6 ft fence (the code height of residential fences), and so on. Sadly many states have drifted to the "Cooper" standard. It includes the 1.5 mile run? Anyone ever chase a suspect a mile ? Sit ups- Push ups- and my favorite the stretch beyond the toes. The only time I reached that far was to pick up a donut!! The later lacked any job validity that even Cooper dropped it although Nevada with a nut case as the head of POST continues to defend the stretch and reach. Sad event it is but consider that for 50+ years nurses in California had to pass the certification test in the state. When there was a nurse shortage the state accepted licenses from other states. When that did not resolve the shortage---well, ever have a nurse from the Phillipines. That is not to diss those nurses but to show that these standards are more political than based in good sense. bob edwards 6773 and almost an "old timer" ***Back to top From: Wes Horn <wwh112@email4us.net> Rudy, I am really amazed at the apparent burr that I have put under some people's saddles, but I assure you that was not my intent. Nor was it to make this personal, this is not an H.P.D. vs O.P.D. I have nothing but the utmost respect for you guys. We at Hayward think we work in a tough town, but I'm not an idiot, I know as far as the activity level is concerned, we do not compare. My brother in law was with O.P.D. 31 years and I have heard the stories, Oakland is a tough town. I'm simply stating my position and in the words of the great and powerful (Ron) Oz, I'm just trying to encourage dialogue and stimulating conversation. What amazes me is though is that someone would assume that I never worked with the likes of the fellas that you mentioned. I assure you that I have worked with the type you mentioned, unassuming tough guys who don't brag or boast and just take care of business when opportunity presents itself. While I don't personally know the fellas that you mentioned, I take your word for it and I believe that they are tough guys. The position I take is my personal position and I don't expect everyone to agree with me. What is interesting to me though is that some who have taken exception with what I've said have not really commented on my position that there should be no watering down of the test and that there should be no double standards. The comeback has been about tough guys who can and will overcome regardless of their state of fitness. The question remains the same, why not hold our veterans to the same standard of fitness that we hold the newbies to? What are we afraid of? What can it hurt? I've heard the argument that veterans are a cagey group and the tone seems to indicate that they can overcome any physical shortcomings through experience. To some extent I believe that is true, but the fact remains that there is no substitution for being in shape. Why do the SWAT teams of most departments demand that their team members be in great shape? Because they are the best and there are extreme physical demands placed on them when they conduct an operation. I'm 50 years old and have been a cop for 22 years and I will admit in my mind I still think I'm the young guy that got hired 22 years ago. But my body tells me otherwise. That's why I work so hard at staying in shape. We've all made that walking stop with no cover and run up against that bad guy who just wouldn't go down no matter how hard or what you hit him with. This is when the hard work in the gym pays off. Just my 2 cents, it ain't personal, I got nothing but love for you guys.....Wes From: "C. Blevins" <cblevins@rraz.net> Back in the olden days, every Academy Class had one of those "physical engagement" tests. I was one of the guys who used to give the test, along with Al Severino, Larry Howerton, Les Hamilton, and some other 225 lb. plus guys. I'll bet there are some guys on Open Line who remember the test. Also, I wonder if they still use that test Connie Blevins From: "Rudy Martin" <rudyp@pacbell.net> I guess Horn as never worked with a guy like Don Urholt, Charlie Gerow, Marty Hussey, Jerry Harris,John Willette or Fred Foster. You would swear that these guys were helpless by thier looks. Let the shit go down and if you weren't quick enough they would knock you on ur ass as well as the suspects. A veteran officer is just that, he knows what he or she is doing, so let it be-- I have been saved by some of the ugliest Police officers in the world. Then lit up a smoke and had a beer after. Rudy Martin From: Wes Horn <wwh112@email4us.net> I was hoping you would get in on this. Curious to hear your comments...Wes From: al perrodin <captalp@yahoo.com> also all this talk about the 6 foot wall, maybe we could have a 6 foot wall there with on foot taken off for every 20 years of age. al perrodin From: cordovajp@comcast.net >YUP !!!!!!!!! >Joe Cordova ***Back to top From: <bill.gillespie@sbcglobal.net> Dear All: I have enjoyed this discussion but note that while females were discussed, none responded. I was also surprised that the incident in Atlanta was not discussed (grandmother jumped and disarmed). Does anyone feel that the political correctness that has changed the face of law enforcement since the 70's may be at the core of what you guys are discussing? Bill Gillespie From: Wes Horn <wwh112@email4us.net> e some very valid points, but with all due respect, I think you may have missed my point. While you have not had any problems with someone coming to your aid, other officers here on OPENELINE from O.P.D. have posted stories about having issues with cops who were unwilling to "engage" for lack of a better term. Hell, maybe I'm missing the point as well because I don't recall anyone ever failing "to get to me" when I needed them. But I sure as hell have some memories of people who were unwilling to engage when the shit hit the fan. A cop can be in the best shape of his or her life and still lack the courage and determination it takes in order to complete the task. And I'm not sure how you test for that. I was a K-9 handler for about 6 or 7 years at H.P.D. and I know that we had "courage tests" for our dogs, but I don't know if those tests would be "politically correct" if performed on humans, but something similar would probably be appropriate. I think that what you were saying in your response was that the cops that came to your aid made up for any athletic prowess or conditioning by pure determination and courage. Believe me, I know that this is true, but I also believe in being physically fit and I think that there are definite benefits to being in shape. There are the obvious benefits, longer life expectancy, exercise reduces stress, etc, etc. But one benefit that I think is often overlooked is that being physically fit(especially at my age)is the confidence factor. It's getting harder and harder to find good applicants/recruits for law enforcement these days. But having said that, I don't think we should make compromises and I don't believe in watering down the testing process at all regardless of gender, race or age. I expect that anyone who wears a police uniform should be able to prove that they can perform certain basic tasks, like climbing a 6 ft wall and/or dragging a 160 lb dummy. I also don't believe in double standards with regards to race, gender or age or time on for that matter. If applicants and recruits are expected to pass certain physical tests, then how can it be unreasonable to expect veteran officers to stay physically fit and for them to pass those same tests? Just my 2 cents....W. Horn From: Jim Coleman <mztgringo@yahoo.com> Well not to belabor a sad event, but after a 211 susp shot up Rich Catamatori, and my trainee & I stopped him, I told my trainee to get out w/the shotgun. After the smoke cleared, she found her .357 on the ft seat (it was not her fault, the pin had come off at the holster swivel and left gun & holster on seat). But when I asked the 5'2" trainee why she had not returned fire when the susp was shooting and if she was hit, she replied she had retreated to a nearby cafe ' cause she had started her period (which was the reason for the inner leg blood) and "NEVER HAD TIME TO SHOOT"). (I have the transcript) Of course that trainee is now in some CEO job on Pluto or wherever. And the susp "joined his Martian spaceship" as he wrote in a blue suicide note he left in his house before going out that morning. Even if my partner is bleeding from his anus, pecker or inflicted wounds, I'd hope at least he/she would get off a few rounds in my defense. Just my Tue. trip down memory lane, jim C To: "'Captain Bill Enger'" <FISHKONA@HAWAII.RR.COM>,"'R Souza'" Well, I just turned 65, am Disability Retired with four major surgeries, have one hell of a time making it through the day and, I can truly attest, am totally over-weight and out of shape. However, I'd be willing to bet that, if I had to go over a six foot wall (and probably only once to pass the test) that I could do it today. THE INMATES ARE RUNNING THE ASYLUM IN OAKLAND . Sam Maddux ***Back to top From: <bill.gillespie@sbcglobal.net> Bill: Perhaps you should share with the group your first foot chase in West Oakland . A strong case for asexual standards before any of these absurd discussions occupied the headlines. From: "Captain Bill Enger" <FISHKONA@HAWAII.RR.COM> I will be 60 years old this year and I still can jump/climb a 6 foot wall. Makes me sick, that candidates in their 20's cannot do the same. What are they going to do when they hit the streets and face the real world? New officers that are less fit will end up with more injuries and more disability retirements. Cannot understand the reasoning. Bill Enger From: Jim Coleman <mztgringo@yahoo.com> Careful OAK, this may spread to OPD and other depts requiring some physical level of ability and an IQ of 50+, jim c From: Jim Coleman <mztgringo@yahoo.com> Harry, Can U help us tell the citizens and taxpayers of OAK is getting FUCK_D ? Lower standards (soon maybe a 12 INCH wall, drag a REAL DUMMY (THE Mayor) and be able to sign a payck. No wonder the murder rate and mere mention of Jokeland are worldly known. S-ithole , Sh-thole, shi-hole, or however u spell it, u cant polish a TURD. Poor active cops & good folks(like you), stuck there. Send me a free ticket to Croakland and watch what happens to it. Jim Coleman ps. Randy, et al, I tried, but bet it doesnt get much press. From: kgatbmf@aol.com Yeah, well you see Sarge, that would be the difference between us. I don't have any problem in believing in the folks I worked with would get through that wall. I remember when she was Kris Wra, an officer needed help and she couldn't get over the 10 foot wire fence, so she drove a car through it. Kind of like they used to say about Nick Bonaconti, "He could run through a wall, it would leave a small hole, but it would be a hole and he'd run through it." That's kind of how I felt about my FTO, Jim Coleman and my old beat partner Bobby Valladon. I've seen them do some amazing things when I needed help. When I was in the Army and went through the "JFK School For Misguided Youth", they taught us that a wall was your best friend because it let you work to your fullest potential, you could go over it, around it, tunnel under it, or blow it up and then hunt the bastard down who put it there and kill him. This is what experience teaches and why I was always told the reason OPD didn't re-test veteran officers, because by the time they were veteran officers they had enough experience to find better ways to deal with things like a wall than just charging over it. But the important thing was there was always a base from where everyone started and everyone was expected to improve as time went by, one way or another, or at least be able to crank it back up to that initial standard if needed. Kind of like Lance House and Mike Martin only needing to run one lap and be in shape for football season. Maybe you got let down by some folks, or were worried about getting let down by some while at OPD, but me, the fact I'm here today, considering everything I've been involved in, just verifies for me that the faith I had in those I worked with was well placed and yeah, I think if the wall was concrete, covered in razor wire, or glass and I needed help the folks I worked with would have found a way to be there, because I've seen them do it over and over again no matter what kind of physical condition they were in. I've been let down by some folks at OPD over some issues, but someone coming to my aide was never anything I ever worried about and I was never let down or disappointed by someone failing to do so. KG ***Back to top Randy makes considerable sense. You may have noticed on www.OPD940.com that we have posted some running comments on current popular issues. I've been accummulating the comments on lowering standards and as soon as I can get back up to Tahoe I'll put the thread on the website. I hope I can find a few minutes to add my own comments on the subject.... ronoz From: "Randy Pope" <randypope@comcast.net> There have been a bunch of really good, well thought-out responses to the dumbing down of the OPD pre-hire testing. Why don't some of you copy your posts and send them to the Tribune Letters to the Editor. We active cops are somewhat limited in what we can express publicly, but you retired guys have nothing to fear. Take up the fight for those of us who can't speak for themselves. Randy From: Wes Horn <wwh112@email4us.net> We have a guy at our department who does the same thing, he's at least 300 lbs and very agile for his size. Only problem is, I think he'd have a problem going through a cement or cinder block wall! Wes We are contemplating placing a 6 foot wall in front of the Reception table and a requirement that each member scale it and carry a buddy around the bar and back to the sign-in table. After all, how will we confirm you all are really OPD after so long away from the job? ronoz From: igoldpan@aol.com Nevada is California 's smoking section, and I'm bringin' a box O' cigars, baby !! JC: Smuggle a couple of Cubans past Customs, Pal !!!! BillyBigFatCohibaAndrews From: kgatbmf@aol.com Sounds pretty harsh, but if I'm getting my ass kicked and my partner can't make if over a 6 ft fence to my rescue............. Sorry, couldn't resist Edgerly said there are police officers who couldn't make it over a 6 foot wall now and Sgt. Horn noted the above. I would like to point out that I also am aware of officers I worked with who couldn't make it over a 6 foot wall, but on at least 3 occasions when I was getting my ass kicked I saw Willie Lump Lump, Timmie Overall and Rich Tyson literally run through and destroy several 6 foot fences to get to me. So, always being the one to offer compromise, I suggest that the standard be changed to, "If you can't go over a 6 foot wall, but can go through one" then you pass. Other than that you still fail. Hopefully that compromise works for everyone. KG ***Back to top From: kgatbmf@aol.com In a message dated 4/25/05 12:35:59 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, openline@yahoogroups.com writes: In San Francisco , the wall climb has been sliced in half, to 3 feet. Can someone please explain to me how you "climb" a 3 foot wall? Or do we now actually have police officers under 3 feet tall who actually do "climb" a 3 foot wall now? KG From: "C. Blevins" <cblevins@rraz.net> Dave: I believe this action is about screwing up law enforcement, they have been doing it for a long time. Ever since the Affirmative Action movement started, the standards, and not only physical, have declined. The City Administrator's daughter may just be coincidental. C. Blevins Got it Frank... you haven't changed a bit... ron From: "Bill Danenhower" <wgdanenhower@directcon.net> Wes, you're right on. And how about this argument? To be a police officer in California you have to be a high school graduate. You had to get that on your own. If you can't climb over a six foot fence or drag a 160 pound weight, work at it until you can. THEN apply for the job. From: "Bill Danenhower" <wgdanenhower@directcon.net> Reminds me about what I read a long time ago about the Army's standard for throwing hand grenades. (I'll have to use made up numbers here; I can remember everything!) The minimum throw for a grenade was one hundred feet. Inablity to do so meant grave danger to the thrower. Very few of the female recruits could throw one that far, so they shortened the distance to fifty feet. Bill Danenhower From: cowchpt8o@aol.com You hardliners like Mike Martin and Connie Blevins are being totally unreasonable. What's next? I suppose you'll insist that candidates to be able to read multi-syllable words and write coherent, complete sentences! And then, God forbid, you'll demand academic standards for promotion!! Think how that'll play in the big city... Frank Mellott ***Back to top From: Daveymc29@aol.com One of the firemen did a whole history, at a retirement dinner, of the"cuntrification" of the fire service. I don't know what he meant by that as I couldn't find it in the dictionary, however I notice that we don't seem to attack inside nearly as aggressively as we used to. We also have gone to a lighter hose and we got rid or those nasty old wooden ladders. Less broken nails to file now, I believe was the reason given. No more hanging on, we all sit in our little seats, with a safety belt on and don our breathing pack. Sometimes fires produce smoke. Some of our folk "don't do roofs." They get promoted to Chiefy, so the can watch. It's all pretty touchy, feely and warm and fuzzy now. Wish I could have stayed longer, but I couldn't. Now I'd be shot for not being PC. Later Dave Mc Arthur From: "Michael Martin" <mjmartin@volcano.net> OK-Connie, Larry, Bill, et al-- I'll say it: HORSE SHIT!!! (The real stuff is produced right here in my yard, so I know it when I see it.) Mike Martin From: Wes Horn <wwh112@email4us.net> I've belonged to OPENLINE now for about 5 or 6 years. I enjoy reading all of the postings and I generally don't wade in or post on too many topics, but this one is near and dear to my heart. I also don't agree with lowering the testing standards. But having said that, I sort of feel like there is a double standard with respect to those cops who let themselves get out of shape. We expect the newbies to pass the entry level P.T. test which includes climbing the 6 ft wall and the dummy drag but the old-timers can get out of shape and nobody cares. I believe the same standard should apply to the veterans. The arguments that some have posted are valid. It is reasonable to ask pre-hires to pass a standardized P.T. test. I personally believe that if you can't get over a 6 ft wall and/or drag a 160 lb dummy then being a cop might not be the job for you. I also agree that the city who hires someone has a right to know before one is hired that they are able to pass the P.T. test. I have always believed that law enforcement agencies should conduct yearly P.T. tests and if a cop fails, then give them a reasonable time to get back into shape. After they get into shape, then they should be given the opportunity to re-test. If they fail after the second test then I believe they should be terminated. Sounds pretty harsh, but if I'm getting my ass kicked and my partner can't make if over a 6 ft fence to my rescue, or drag my limp body out of harms way then that's a problem for me. I've heard of some agencies who don't make it mandatory, but they offer the P.T. test once a year and give bonuses to people who pass it and the bonus comes around Christmas time. If one stays in shape then there are benefits to all. There are fewer sick calls, fewer injuries and they will enjoy an overall better quality of life. Just my 2 cents. By the way, I am 50 years old and planning on retiring from H.P.D. and hopefully I will be working for A.C.S.O. soon. I just took my P.T. test (yes, I climbed the 6 ft wall and did the 160 lb dummy drag) this past weekend and passed. And if a geezer like me can do it, then I expect no less from the young folks.....W. Horn...Sgt. H.P.D. From: Daveymc29@aol.com Bill, Bill, Bill, Didn't one of those "higher ups" explain that she's just another unfortunate victim? You can be glad it isn't mom trying to jump that 2 1/2 foot wall. She'd take it down in a heart beat. If daughter is half the woman mom is, well like Connie said..... Later Dave Mc Arthur From: Daveymc29@aol.com Connie, Now what good are standards if they cannot be changed, in mid stream, to fit the needs of a few relatives? Nepotism is a valid management tool, if properly applied. I'm just glad she didn't want to become a firefighter. We may have had to put away all those nasty old heavy hoses and ladders. Later ***Back to top From: KSBusse@comcast.net > Usually I just sit back and read the posts-I love hearing from you guys. But this just pisses me off. If they lower the standard to pass the physical agility exam-what will they do to get her through the academy? Will she have to run with the rest of the class, OR have they changed P.T. too??? My nephew just finished his physical agility with Alameda County , yep, he had to clear two 6 ft. fences, wood and chain link. Why not OPD officers who chase far more criminals then everyone else-by far! I don't get it, somebody fill me in! From: Larry Eade <opd4ever@yahoo.com> > Sounds Like A Great Compromise-Resulting in Future Law Suits and Media Attacks for OPD-not to mention Safety Issues Let me get this right- City hall is complaining about overtime (thugs). Now they are going to assume all the costs of testing, backgrounds, uniforms, instructors, and 16 -17 weeks of salary and academy costs to find out what they could have found out for free in the prehiring testing process. Will we have to incurr repeated costs due to the wash out rate and continous hiring to meet the needs created by the wash outs. Moe" Money, Moe' Money, Moe' Money, pissed down the drain-what the hell it is only citizen tax dollars. If you want the job shouldn't you make a commitment to get ready for it. Are we now going to have an OPD Academy cadre of personal trainers for the fat kids. Now we have to prepare the applicants to qualify them-my Dad use to tell me to wipe my own _ _ _! There are plenty of qualified applicants from every walk of life, this step is totally unnecessary and dangerous. But what the hell, it got a politician's kid hired. If the kid couldn't get ready (on her own) to climb the wall, what will she do in the academy to get ready-nothing, just call Mommy and physical training will be eliminated as unnecessary. Hell, force feed all applicants for the academy Krispy Kreams for six months then they will be on equal footing. Now, let us just pause and ponder, do you think the wash out rate will climb. Now, instead of the hiring process being attacked, will the academy training will be attacked based on the wash out rate? Now, if the wash out rate climbs, can it be narrowed to a protected group? The self fulling prophecy is in full effect? Did a lawyer sell us this bag of sheeps clothing? Think any of our Bay Area Attorneys will notice? Will they stand idely by and miss a pay day? Not to mention the fact that a certain City Attorney is known to give out large sums of money without even taking one deposition? Did anyone review this decision to protect the City's interest. I mean the city, it's citizens, it police department-not the politicians. Based on their decisions as of late we need to hire someone to protect the City from politicians. John Boy- you did a good job of being politically correct. I just wish that the politicians would quit putting personal interests ahead of those of the city and it's citizens. This sounds like a topic for the next Chris Rock show. I could be wrong, but I really don't think so! From: igoldpan@aol.com Mr. Tucker! TEAR DOWN THAT WALL ! ......oh, different speech somewhere else...... Instead of something RELEVANT, like simulating dragging a partner out of harms way, hell, who needs that? Make the test something like.... maybe dragging a five pound bag of Church's chicken across their parking lot to the police car. And if SFFD has a THREE foot wall, OPD can have recruits boost each other over a "Half Dome" size challenge of say.... Two and a half feet. Yeah, try that ya Pussy Navy SEALS !!!!!!! Bill Andrews From: "Ron Oz" <RONOZAWAY@HOTMAIL.COM> Connie... You've already made the appropriate comment.... ron
From: "C. Blevins" <cblevins@rraz.net> Whenever you can't think of an appropriate comment, it's best to just leave it alone. C. Blevins ***Back to top +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ----- Original Message ----- From: R Souza - Chip Johnson Monday, April 25, 2005 The Oakland Police Department is changing its physical skills requirements for entrance into the police academy -- and it couldn't have come at a better time for the daughter of the city's top administrator. Soon after Erin Breckenridge, the daughter of City Administrator Deborah Edgerly, failed to scale a 6-foot-tall wall, a requirement for applicants along with an endurance run and dragging a 150-pound dummy out of harm's way, the department abruptly halted the practice. From now on, those requirements are part of the academy training but no longer a prerequisite. Recruits who cannot scale the wall, drag the heavy dummy or endure the training run by 16th week of the 27- week course will wash out of the program. Those are the same standards that the state Commission on Police Officer Standards and Training recommends, which is revising academy prerequisites to have less-stringent physical exams. Sgt. Jon Madarang of the Oakland department's recruiting division said the physical testing change was a long time coming and just happened around the same time Edgerly's daughter took the physical skills test on April 9. "She is a victim of a connection with her mom at a time when change is happening,'' Madarang said. Discussions about moving the physical skills test into the academy training came out of talks between Edgerly and top police brass soon after interim Chief Wayne Tucker replaced Richard Word as head of the department. Edgerly expressed concerns that the department's academy entrance process unfairly screened out minorities and women at a disproportionate rate compared with white male applicants. Background checks for minorities, including credit checks, sunk the applications of many young minority recruits, while the physical entrance examination, at least in one recent group of applicants, resulted in the disqualification of 63 percent of the women who took it. "There are very few police departments that make that a requirement to academy entrance at all,'' Edgerly said Friday. "While physical fitness is very important, there are officers in the department today who couldn't scale a 6-foot wall," she added. "Yes, the policy was changed, but it was not my decision, and what bothers me is why this is such a big story -- or are there guys in the Police Department who want to stick with the old ways. "If it means my daughter has to drop out so the process changes, well that's fine,'' Edgerly said. Actually, the only reason the 22-year-old Breckenridge is still in the running to get into the academy is because of the changes initiated by the department -- and all suspicions of nepotism aside, the changes may not be a bad thing. The physical skills tests in other large police departments have been changed to create a level playing field for all applicants. In Los Angeles, potential recruits are required to display physical endurance and strength tests, but nothing so rigorous as scaling a wall or dragging a heavy dummy a certain distance. They are tested on a stationary bike that ratchets up the tension over the length of the test, jump continuously back and forth across a line and tug on a rope that measures strength, said Officer Mark Horton, a recruiter for the department. In San Francisco , the wall climb has been sliced in half, to 3 feet. The thrust of the change in training is to allow people who may score high on other aspects of pre-academy testing to get a shot at improving their physical exam scores and making a passing grade. The thinking behind it is that there are plenty of people who display intellectual and communication skills and who otherwise might make pretty good police officers, said Deputy Chief Greg Lowe, who heads the department's training division. The other consideration goes back to what Edgerly has pointed out and interim Chief Tucker apparently agrees with. "The chief said, 'If this is so important, why aren't our 10- and 12- year veterans tested on the wall climb?" Lowe said, recalling the conversation. "If it's a skill we can train, let's train it," Lowe said, repeating Tucker's sentiments. With about $20 million in tax funds from the city's voter-approved Measure Y available to train and hire 63 police officers, it's important to have a tested, workable pre-screening process in place that works for all the applicants, including the city manager's daughter. ***Back to top |